Melissa Perri is the founder of Product Institute, author of Escaping the Build Trap, and host of the Product Thinking Podcast. She has worked with startups, Fortune 50 companies, and everything in between to help them build better products and level up their product teams. In our conversation, we discuss: • The history of the product owner role • The differences between product owners and product managers • How to transition from product owner to product manager • The evolution of and problems with the SAFe framework • How large non-tech companies can improve their product practices • Much more — Brought to you by: • Pendo—The only all-in-one product experience platform for any type of application • OneSchema—Import CSV data 10x faster • Coda—The all-in-one collaborative workspace — Find the transcript at: lennysnewsletter.com/p/product-… — Where to find Melissa Perri: • X: twitter.com/lissijean • LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/melissajeanperri • Website: melissaperri.com • Product Institute: productinstitute.com • Podcast: produxlabs.com/product-thinking — Where to find Lenny: • Newsletter: lennysnewsletter.com • X: • LinkedIn: — In this episode, we cover: — Referenced: • Escaping the Build Trap: How Effective Product Management Creates Real Value: • Lean UX: • Scrum: • What is Extreme Programming? • Capital One: • The Agile Manifesto: • Ken Schwaber on X: • Jeff Sutherland on X: • Kanban: • What is a kanban board?: • Ron Jeffries’s website: • Jeff Patton on X: • The Scrum Guide: • OpenSky: • SAFe: • Dean Leffingwell on LinkedIn: • Capital One scraps 1,100 tech positions: • Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group): • Marty Cagan on LinkedIn: • Jeff Gothelf on X: • Shruti Patel on LinkedIn: • Product Thinking Podcast: Mastering Product Focus: Balancing Legacy and Innovation with Shruti Patel: • Melissa Douros on LinkedIn: • Mind the Product: • Athenahealth: • McKinsey: — Production and marketing by . For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com. — Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.