Read the show’s notes in full
The Full Stack Model Lab
One year later, it would seem that the pivot to reasoning has had tremendous success, and Imbue has now reached a >$1B valuation, with participation from Astera Institute, NVIDIA, Cruise CEO Kyle Vogt, Notion co-founder Simon Last, and others. Imbue tackles their work with a “full stack” approach:
* Models. Pretraining very large (>100B parameter) models, optimized to perform well on internal reasoning benchmarks, with a ~10,000 Nvidia H100 GPU cluster lets us iterate rapidly on everything from training data to architecture and reasoning mechanisms.
* Tools and Agents. Building internal productivity tools from coding agents for fixing type checking and linting errors, to sophisticated systems like CARBS (for hyperparameter tuning and network architecture search).
* Interface Invention. Solving agent trust and collaboration (not merely communication) with humans by creating better abstractions and interfaces — IDEs for users to program computers in natural language.
* Theory. Publishing research about the theoretical underpinnings of self-supervised learning, as well as scaling laws for machine learning research.
Kanjun believes we are still in the “bare metal phase” of agent development, and they want to take a holistic approach to building the “operating system for agents”. We loved diving deep into the Imbue approach toward solving the AI Holy Grail of reliable agents, and are excited to share our conversation with you today!
Timestamps
* [00:00:00] Introductions
* [00:06:07] The origin story of Imbue
* [00:09:39] Imbue's approach to training large foundation models optimized for reasoning
* [00:12:18] Imbue's goals to build an "operating system" for reliable, inspectable AI agents
* [00:15:37] Imbue's process of developing internal tools and interfaces to collaborate with AI agents
* [00:17:27] Imbue's focus on improving reasoning capabilities in models, using code and other data
* [00:19:50] The value of using both public benchmarks and internal metrics to evaluate progress
* [00:21:43] Lessons learned from developing the Avalon research environment
* [00:23:31] The limitations of pure reinforcement learning for general intelligence
* [00:28:36] Imbue's vision for building better abstractions and interfaces for reliable agents
* [00:31:36] Interface design for collaborating with, rather than just communicating with, AI agents
* [00:37:40] The future potential of an agent-to-agent protocol
* [00:39:29] Leveraging approaches like critiquing between models and chain of thought
* [00:45:49] Kanjun's philosophy on enabling team members as creative agents at Imbue
* [00:53:51] Kanjun's experience co-founding the communal co-living space The Archive
* [01:00:22] Lightning Round
Show Notes
* Imbue
* Avalon
* CARBS (hyperparameter optimizer)
* Series B announcement
* Kanjun/Imbue’s Podcast
* MIT Media Lab
* Research mentioned:
* Momentum Contrast
* SimClr
* Chelsea Finn - SayCan
* Agent Protocol - part of the AI Engineer Foundation
* Xerox PARC
* Michael Nielsen
* Jason Benn
* Outset Capital
* Scenius - Kevin Kelly
* South Park Commons
* The Archive
* Thursday Nights in AI
Transcript
Alessio: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space Podcast. This is Alessio, Partner and CTO at Residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol.ai. [00:00:19]
Swyx: Hey, and today in the studio we have Kanjun from Imbue. Welcome. So you and I have, I guess, crossed paths a number of times. You're formerly named Generally Intelligent and you've just announced your rename, rebrand in huge, humongous ways. So congrats on all of that. And we're here to dive in into deeper detail on Imbue. We like to introduce you on a high level basis, but then have you go into a little bit more of your personal side. So you graduated your BS at MIT and you also spent some time at the MIT Media Lab, one of the most famous, I guess, computer hacking labs in the world. Then you graduated MIT and you went straight into BizOps at Dropbox, where you're eventually chief of staff, which is a pretty interesting role we can dive into later. And then it seems like the founder bug hit you. You were basically a three times founder at Ember, Sorceress, and now at Generally Intelligent slash Imbue. What should people know about you on the personal side that's not on your LinkedIn? That's something you're very passionate about outside of work. [00:01:12]
Kanjun: Yeah. I think if you ask any of my friends, they would tell you that I'm obsessed with agency, like human agency and human potential. [00:01:19]
Swyx: That's work. Come on.
Kanjun: It's not work. What are you talking about?
Swyx: So what's an example of human agency that you try to promote? [00:01:27]
Kanjun: With all of my friends, I have a lot of conversations with them that's kind of helping figure out what's blocking them. I guess I do this with a team kind of automatically too. And I think about it for myself often, like building systems. I have a lot of systems to help myself be more effective. At Dropbox, I used to give this onboarding talk called How to Be Effective, which people liked. I think like a thousand people heard this onboarding talk, and I think maybe Dropbox was more effective. I think I just really believe that as humans, we can be a lot more than we are. And it's what drives everything. I guess completely outside of work, I do dance. I do partner dance. [00:02:03]
Swyx: Yeah. Lots of interest in that stuff, especially in the sort of group living houses in San Francisco, which I've been a little bit part of, and you've also run one of those. [00:02:12]
Kanjun: That's right. Yeah. I started the archive with two friends, with Josh, my co-founder, and a couple of other folks in 2015. That's right. And GPT-3, our housemates built. [00:02:22]
Swyx: Was that the, I guess, the precursor to Generally Intelligent, that you started doing more things with Josh? Is that how that relationship started? Yeah. [00:02:30]
Kanjun: This is our third company together. Our first company, Josh poached me from Dropbox for Ember. And there we built a really interesting technology, laser raster projector, VR headset. And then we were like, VR is not the thing we're most passionate about. And actually it was kind of early days when we both realized we really do believe that in our lifetimes, like computers that are intelligent are going to be able to allow us to do much more than we can do today as people and be much more as people than we can be today. And at that time, we actually, after Ember, we were like, work on AI research or start an AI lab. A bunch of our housemates were joining OpenAI, and we actually decided to do something more pragmati