Cindy Cohn, the executive director of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and Claire Boyle, the managing editor of McSweeney's Quarterly Concern, talk with Recode's Kara Swisher about a special nonfiction issue the two organizations teamed up to produce, "The End of Trust." In this episode: Why the EFF and McSweeney's decided to work together; have consumers given up on having privacy?; why "Facebook doesn't really have users or customers, they have hostages"; the current copyright battles in Europe; why the ability of AI to play chess says little about the usefulness of AI in general; surveillance that doesn't seem malevolent and the privilege of "I have nothing to hide"; China's "bonkers" social scoring system; the history of the internet and how things got screwed up; how to unscrew it; will Congress make a move on tech when the shutdown ends?; the importance of Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices