Journalist and author Bart Gellman talks with Recode's Kara Swisher about his newest book, Dark Mirror: Edward Snowden and the American Surveillance State. Gellman discusses how he got connected with Snowden ahead of his whistleblowing disclosures in 2013; how he reacted to the staggering size of the US government's digital surveillance apparatus; and the different waves of impact of the Snowden leaks on the government and tech industry. He also talks about why people should still be concerned about the amount of data the tech industry has amassed, and why debating whether Snowden is a traitor is a "silly" distraction. Featuring: Bart Gellman (@bartongellman), author, Dark Mirror: Edward Snowden and the American Surveillance State Host: Kara Swisher (@karaswisher), Recode co-founder and editor-at-large More to explore: On Reset, Arielle Duhaime-Ross explores why — and how — tech is changing everything. On Recode Media, Peter Kafka interviews business titans, journalists, comedians and podcasters about the collision of tech and media. On Pivot, Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway talk about the big tech news stories of the week, who's winning, who's failing, and what comes next. And on Land of the Giants, Jason Del Rey chronicled the rise of Amazon. Season 2 will focus on Netflix and is coming soon! About Recode by Vox: Recode by Vox helps you understand how tech is changing the world — and changing us. Follow Us: Newsletter: Recode Daily Twitter: @Recode and @voxdotcom Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices